Queen is Dead

Post by **Jacobs** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:06 pm

I came home this afternoon to find a clump of bees surrounding something on the ground in front of my second strongest hive. I moved them away to find a nice fat dead queen with what appeared to be a damaged wing. I had been in my strongest hive yesterday and added a super of empty brood comb to give the queen more laying room. I hope I had not killed her. Because this queen was fresh enough to attract worker bees I decided to try and see the reaction of both hives. I placed the queen on the landing board of my strongest hive. A guard bee immediately attacked and took the queen to the ground and continued attacking. I placed the queen on the landing board of my second strongest hive and several bees gathered around the queen and she was gently removed from the front.

My best guess is that the queen came from the second strongest hive. This hive is being treated with a formic acid pad for varroa mites. The pad has been on for 10 days and there are 11 more days of scheduled treatment.

My thinking now is to complete the treatment and then explore after 11 days. If this hive is queenless then I can possibly combine it with one of my weak but queenright hives or take a frame with eggs from my strongest hive and have the bees make a new queen. I am not seeing drones yet, but my strongest hive has capped drone brood, and the second strongest is removing a few almost fully formed drones that had been damaged by mites.

Does anyone have an opinion about which option to choose or another suggestion for a course of action?

ski · Post by **ski** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:11 pm

Possibly another way to go that might save a honey crop would be to purchase a queen in a week or two from a queen supplier. But make the call now.

Post by **Jacobs** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:11 pm

I'm going to be calling Brushy Monday about the package pickup scheduled for March 27th. If they are delivering on that date or with a one week delay maybe they can add a queen to the order even though they are sold out of packages. If not, add brood/eggs to keep them from going laying worker until I can get a queen.

drewgrim · Post by **drewgrim** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:20 pm

try calling jack tapp. i got queens from him last year.

Post by **Jacobs** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:57 pm

Jack Tapp was at the State meeting. I think the Chapel Hill weather has slowed queen/package production like it has our Spring buildup. I may go ahead and call him tomorrow to see when he will have queens. That would be a faster and easier trip if the timing is right.

ski · Post by **ski** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:58 pm

There are the guys below from the wanted/for sale section I have ordered from Harold Curtis in the past and have queens on order from Harold Curtis and Larry Tate now.

Harold Curtis
Dadant equipment
Italian queens - marked
Graham
336-376-6211

Larry Tate
Winston-Salem, NC
Call 336-788-4554 or 336-972-3583
TatesApiaries@yahoo.com

Post by **Wally** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:26 pm

Is your strongest hive from the feral tree cut out? Would you not like to have more queens from that genetic line? I would move a frame of eggs from it and check it in 7 to 8 days. You may have 8 or 10 capped queen cells from the tree hive, to do with as you please.

Post by **Jacobs** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:58 pm

I would love to have queens from the strongest (bee tree) hive. When I put the formic acid pad on the problem hive there were eggs and larvae. It never got hot enough to fume to the point where the bees came out of the hive (like they did last Spring). I'm wondering if the acid has killed the eggs or when this queen stopped laying. Also, if I put eggs in during treatment, will the acid take them out? The way the bee tree hive is going, I will probably be able to take a frame from it in addition to a split or two.

Ski was suggesting a queen so that I would not have the population loss while a queen is made. He was reminding me that the flow is approaching and I may want to keep the hive population up with a replacement queen so that this hive may produce honey.

I am hoping to make 1 or 2 splits from the bee tree hive to replace some of my winter losses. That is one of the reasons I just gave them the extra medium with drawn brood comb in it. Once drones are flying I want work on getting daughters/spits in the works.

By the way Ski, when will they have queens available?

Post by **Wally** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:22 pm

If a queen starts laying a week from today, Mar. 25, her first offspring will begin foraging in about 42 days. About May. 6. How much flow will they be able to work. The bees and brood you have now will do most of the gathering during the Apr. and May flow.

Will the breeder give you mite counts from his mother hive? How resistant will they be?

Post by **Jacobs** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:34 am

Wally, your math is better than mine if the flow is not delayed by the cooler weather. If it is delayed by a few weeks the math gets trickier. I am somewhat anxious to complete the treatment of this hive since they are removing a few developing workers and drones with deformed wings.

I may just wait out the next 10 days and then open up the hive. If I immediately hear the queenless roar and see agitated and fanning bees I will still go through the hive and see if they have attempted to make queens. If there are eggs that these bees can use to attempt to make a new queen now, am I right in thinking this will delay the appearance of a significant laying worker problem?

Post by **Wally** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:47 am

There's too many possible outcomes for me to type that much. You could do anything from losing the hive to making it into 6 or 8 nucs.

ski · Post by **ski** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Jacobs,
I am glad you asked the question about when the queens are expected. I was thinking in a couple of weeks for some reason, but I checked my calendar and it will most likely be May sometime. I guess just because I expect it, it does not make it happen.
Ski

Post by **Jacobs** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:33 am

I removed the formic acid pad and examined the entire hive yesterday afternoon. The bees were calm, quiet and not fanning. There were a good number of workers and some adult drones walking around. There were very few capped worker cells with workers emerging from them and a few capped drone cells. I saw NO eggs or larvae. I saw no evidence of a queen cell and I saw no queen. Puzzling.

I took a frame from the bee tree hive that had some eggs and larvae on it and placed it in this hive. This weekend I will check to see if the hive has started making queen cells. If there is a virgin queen or a newly mated (unlikely) queen that I missed, this insurance won't hurt, and if I see queen cells, I will know that he hive needed the eggs to make a queen.

Post by **Jacobs** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:39 pm

The situation with this hive gets stranger and stranger. Marc came over today and helped me split the bee tree hive and look at this one. The bees in this one were calm and no queenless roar. We saw eggs. Some were single eggs in the bottom center of a cell. Some were singles in the bottom, but at the side of a cell. Some were doubles, some were triples and a few were quadruples, not on the side of the cells but in the bottom. There were not large numbers of eggs, and unlike previous laying worker situations, there were no eggs laid on top of pollen.

We looked reasonably carefully and did not see a queen. I had another hive that had a queen and about 100 bees with her. She looked healthy and active and had managed to lay a few eggs. I caged her (plugged with beeswax since I did not have a candy plug). I placed the cage on the landing board of this hive to see the reaction. The bees gathered on the cage and did not appear hostile. It looked like they were trying to feed her through the screen. I opened the hive and put the cage on top of some frames where a significant number of bees were. I got the same reaction. Bees gathered on the cage and were not biting or aggressive, but were appearing to stick their tongues through the screen to feed her. I placed the cage between two frames and closed the hive up. I intend to look in the hive tomorrow afternoon to see if she is still alive and if so, whether they still appear to like her.

Any bets on what I will find?

Post by **Wally** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:08 pm

I'm betting you find a virgin queen trying to get in to her, if you look good.

Post by **Jacobs** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:46 pm

As in permanently virgin with a poor laying pattern (and hence a drone layer)?

Post by **Wally** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:57 pm

No, as either ready to mate, or just mated and don't have the laying pattern down pat. Should be laying fine within the week.

Post by **Jacobs** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:04 pm

I was hoping that was what you meant, but I have not seen 3 and 4 eggs in a cell except with laying workers and they don't care where they drop eggs.

Post by **Wally** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:24 pm

A new queen will lay more than 1 egg in a cell for a few days, until she gets the hang of it.