Guilfordbeekeepers.org

Looking for an alternative to heavy old fashioned Langstroth hives? Check out the ultimate hobbyist bee hive at thegardenhive.com. Made in Julian by Guilford Beekeepers member Bill Rawleigh. Your bees and your back will thank you. And so will I!

Isn't the Langstroth a modern improvement over the more primitive top bar hive, and isn't one advantage of the Langstroth that weight can be managed by the use of 8 frame mediums so that the weight would be less per super than the weight of a top bar hive while allowing for almost unlimited expansion?

My lang deeps weigh only about 9 lb. per frame. Why would you want to lift more than 9 lb.

First, the Langstroth is a product of the mid 1800's, hardly modern. Top bar hives of various designs are now considered by many to be the cutting edge of hive design. In this time when bees are threatened by disease, parasites, habitat loss and climate change the emphasis has shifted from one of maximizing honey production to one of simply keeping our bees alive. The top bar design, especially when a viewing glass is included, is easy to manage and encourages frequent inspections which results in problems being caught early when they are most effectively treated.

Second, how many beekeepers do you know who have given up their bees because they can no longer cope with the physical labor of unstacking and restacking hive bodies? How many kids and women are discouraged from keeping bees because of the physical strength required?

The real issue here is the division of beekeepers between hobbyists and those who hope to earn some money from the labor of their bees. I submit that if we humans are going to help our bees survive this critical time it will be the hobbyist who will carry the load. Why not develop a hive design that makes it not only more easy to support a colony but is also attractive and fun?

I don't have a problem with your goals or desires to help the bees. Your web site is a fine place to puff your wares, but I don't think our "for sale" board is the place to go that far. Not policy, just my opinion. If you are making claims in order to make sales, you should be prepared to back them up if you are putting them on this board.

I don't see how top bar hives are any more "cutting edge" than are Langstroth hives. The cutting edge part of both is the movable frame. In addition, Langstroth got the bee space right and frame design right and generally ended having to cut combs from the side of other movable frame designs in order to make proper inspections of combs. An observation window is nice on any hive, but IT DOES NOT provide for a view of the comb that removing the frame does provide and IT DOES NOT not allow for the kinds of inspection of the surface of the comb that a beekeeper needs to make.

For us urban, backyard beekeepers, another major consideration is keeping swarming to a minimum so that some of our less sympathetic neighbors are not frightened by clouds of bees leaving an over crowded hive. Langstroth hives allow for expanding the space available for the bees, and classical top bar hives do not.

We are fortunate to have wood for frames, wood glue, and nails readily available to us. This allows us to make movable frames that are strong and support the honey comb from the top, bottom, and sides, as opposed to a top bar from which comb hangs, but has no further support.

I am not in the bee business and I don't sell honey. I may get a top bar hive someday because it represents another challenge in working with bees, but I have not seen anything that indicates bees are better off in top bar hives.

""First, the Langstroth is a product of the mid 1800's, hardly modern.""

I would say quite modern compared to the third world, 16 century TBH. Either with an origin of Tanzania or Kenya, neither of which are well known for their modern inventions and innovations.

Also, it is just as easy to remove a frame at a time from a lang as it is a TBH, with less limited options as to what can be done with them.

Wally, the Kenyan top bar was "invented" by the British, I believe, in the 1970's as a way for 3rd world subsistence farmers to earn currency by selling honey and, more importantly, wax. The hive was simple to make and soon the beekeepers banded together in co-ops and were able to raise their standard of living. Quite an interesting and successful program. Sort of like the "teaching a man to fish rather than just giving him a fish" saying. As for your belief that nothing modern or innovative has come from Tanzania or Kenya I'll let someone who knows more than I speak to that.

The Langstroth hive was expressly developed for the mechanization of the honey industry. Back in the 1850's there was a great enthusiasm for all things mechanical. Thus you have mechanically produced foundation, elaborate honey extractors, and so on. Remember Emerson's presentation a few weeks back where he was standing on a fork lift to reach a stack of supers that must have been a good ten feet tall? I know that is an extreme example, but how often do you think such a stack has the brood nest examined? Not everyone has a fork lift! I maintain that the most important aspect of beekeeping these days is the close management of the colony. My top bar hive is easier to maintain than any Langstroth. The window allows me to check inside the hive in a matter of seconds. If I don't like what I see I can lift off the roof and pull some comb. The disturbance to the hive is minimal. I don't need a smoker, bee suit, queen excluder, any of that. What's more, when I harvest I get honey in pure white virgin wax untainted by foundation wax of unknown origin or pesticide build up which is the result of using the same wax over and over.

I would be happy to have you try one of my hives if I thought you would give it an honest try. What do you say?

Please post a pic of your pure, white honey. The rest speaks for itself.

Rob, by cutting edge I mean that there are a great many keepers who are dissatisfied with the bee losses they are experiencing with their Langstroths and are looking for different hive designs, designs which may be less attractive for commercial keepers but more bee friendly. By cutting edge I mean that there are beekeepers who are concerned about the toxins found to build up in foundation wax over time and are looking for hive designs that do not have this problem. You know as well as anyone that beekeeping is much different than it was a generation ago. Isn't it obvious that as conditions have changed for the bee that keepers are going to have to change the way they care for their bees? Don't you see the advantage of harvesting a top bar a few combs at a time, creating space, versus stacking super upon super because you have to use a mechanical extractor to get the honey out of the frames and you only want to do it once a season? You don't need all that equipment with a top bar. I offer a super on my hive because my customers ask for it, but it is unnecessary.

Swarming? Any keeper who can't control swarming needs either to go back to class or, more likely, keep closer tabs on his or her hives. Bees are bees and the techniques of management are the same no matter what sort of hive they live in.

Frames? Don't need 'em. It is actually not difficult to teach a beginner not to hold a comb sideways. Sure, if a hive overheats there can be a collapse of comb in the hive, but that is a management problem, not a design problem.

As far as my "puffing", I am disappointed in the lack of curiosity you have shown regarding alternative ways to keep bees. There are a lot of innovative hive designs out there and not all are top bar-based. Warre hives are seeing a resurgence, too. Anyone interested in "sustainable, low-impact, low-cost, chemical-free, small-scale, 'organic', natural beekeeping" should check out Phil Chandler's site biobees.com. Flaky? No, not at all, just a different way of looking at beekeeping. "Different" is not the same as "bad", right?

With your original two posts, I was concerned that potential new beekeepers might be mislead into thinking that by "cutting edge" you meant that top bar hives were new and superior or were a better way to go than Langstroth hives. I have not seen anything that indicates they are better for bees.

Exactly how is a top bar hive more bee friendly than a Langstroth?

Lanstroth developed his hive and frames before the invention of extractors and before the availability of commercially produced wax foundation. Anyone who wants freshly drawn comb in a Lanstroth frame only needs to place the empty frame, perhaps with a starter strip of bees wax, into the box, and the bees will build out a better supported comb than in a top bar hive. If the beekeeper wants cut comb honey or to crush and strain, this can easily be done in the Langstroth hive.

As for stacking box upon box or harvesting a few frames at a time, I can always pull and replace Langstroth frames as desired, to take honey or create more brood space. Top bars offer no advantage on that account. On the other hand, if the bee population skyrockets, as it may well do in early spring, the Langstroth hive gives me the option and the flexibility to add considerably more space for the bees to build comb, make honey or add brood. Being able to add more space is one of the primary ways of lessening the chance of bees swarming. Top bar hives do not provide for this flexibility.

I don't know of anyone who can totally prevent swarming, but I am curious: How do you control swarming in the top bar hive setting?

How is comb collapse in an overheated hive a management problem rather than a design problem? I'm not aware of this happening in Langstroth frames. I suppose I could paint a hive black, put it in full sun in the summer, and have it act as a solar wax melter, but short of that, I'd have to sling a drawn out Langstroth frame pretty hard to get comb collapse, and that is something I don't generally do when I am inspecting a frame.

If someone wants the challenge of top bar hive beekeeping, I say go for it! I do not think new beekeepers who have no experience with bees or equipment should be lead to believe that it is new, or cutting edge, or superior to the Langstroth hive when that has not been demonstrated.

Wally, I thought you'd never ask! Picture taken back in the summer.[http://www.thegardenhive.com/your-windo ... window-ws/]

Very pretty white comb. I don't see any honey. If your goal is no honey, just comb, TBH may be the way to go.

Well Rob, I sure can't slide anything past you! You are exactly right - my post was directed at the new beekeepers taking our class in how to keep bees in a Langstroth hive. Why? Because I know from experience that there would be nothing said about any other way to keep bees and I wanted our newcomers to be aware of the wide range of choices they have. It is puzzling that the idea of alternative and better ways of keeping bees should draw such an overheated response. Wally's response is normal Wally, a recreational arguer if the ever was one, but your response is more puzzling. Your assertion that top bar hives are more difficult for beginners is based on exactly what? But never mind, let's go through your post.

How is a top bar more bee friendly?
Let's assume:
It is better for bees to be managed through this era of environmental degradation by informed and competent beekeepers than it is for the bees to be feral.
For the same reason, the health of the colony is more important than the amount of product the colony produces for the keeper.

If you accept these assumptions, then I ask you:

Is it better for bees to be forced into one cell size (foundation) instead of drawing comb as hundreds of thousands of years of evolution direct them?

Is it better for the bees that the queen is excluded from areas of the hive because it is inconvenient to the beekeeper and his mechanical extractor?

Is it better for the bees that beeswax in the form of purchased foundation is introduced into the hive without screening for viruses, bacteria, or pesticides?

Is it better for bees that the entire hive is taken apart when pulling a single comb?

And if the effort of inspecting a supered hive means that is is not inspected as often, is it good for the bees that problems in the hive go unrecognised?

Is it better for bees that informed and competent beekeepers must have help managing a supered hive if they lack sufficient upper body strength to manage on their own?

I could go on for days, but the point is that top bar hives are better for bees because the bees are not prevented from following their natural instincts to anywhere near the degree in top bars as they are in a Langstroth hive. If you don't know this then I urge you to pick up a top bar hive and see for yourself.

Why did the Langstrth hive become so popular?
Langstroth hives are a product of the Victorian fascination with all things mechanical. The Langstroth hive is a honey factory and the factory workers (bees) are important only as the source of the hive's commercial products. I cannot think of any aspect of Langstroth design that elevates the importance of the bee's health over the importance of hive yield. Can you?

Swarming
Could you prevent swarming in your old fashioned Langstroth if you checked it every day or so for queen cells? If so, why don't you do that?
If you happen to see that you may have a swarm developing, what do you do? If you decide to split the colony do you use another hive or a nuc? Why do you think a top bar keeper wouldn't do the same thing?

Overheating and comb collapse as an example of design error?
Nope, this goes back to the assumption that our beekeeper is knowledgable and competent. If a beekeeper sites a hive in a hot climate in full sun without adequate water and without ventilation the result would be a failure caused by human error. Do you still disagree? If you did not competently manage your Langstroth box and your bees died is it the fault of the hive box? No, of course not.

Is learning to keep bees in a top bar more challenging than in a Langstroth?
If by challenging you mean more difficult then the answer is no. Keeping bees in a top bar, especially in a top bar with an observation window (or two!) is fun. It's fun because you don't need to wear a bee suit to protect yourself from angry bees, it's fun because you will never burn yourself or set a field afire with a smoker, it's fun because you can pull up a chair and look deep into the heart of your hive with no more disturbance to the bees than the unaccustomed light streaming through the glass. It's fun because you can harvest honey any time the urge strikes you (and your bees have enough to spare). It's fun because you can inspect your hive every day with no more effort than a stroll over to the bee yard.

In sum, what's not to like? Top bars are obviously better for bees, more fun to manage, and a definite improvement over the antique Langstroth. Don't believe it? Try it. Maybe the challenge is in the opening of a mind.

Well, if there were any facts in your post, I might respond in kind, but since 2/3 is personal opinion and the other third is completely wrong, I won't even try.

I have just caught up on this entertaining post.
There is one area of top bar vs. Langstroth that has not been discussed and that most simply put is "success rate".
I have kept bees in top bar hives as well as Langstroth. I also know others that have extensive experience keeping bees in top bars.
My personal experience is that bees are more successfully kept in Langstroth. I know that this is subjective and can be argued. I have successfully kept up to 100 hives over the past 12 years. My extensive attempts to maintain bees in top bar hives have been unsuccessful.
When using top bar hives....
Cons
difficult to feed
more time consuming to get started
difficult to treat
difficult to move
Pros
cheaper if built by yourself
less strenuous to ones back
I think that Top bar hives are a good alternative and may be a good option for anyone that wants to have bees in a small way.

I have one top bar hive and all the others are langstroth.
I enjoyed the challenge of starting and getting it going but I agree pretty much 100% with Kurt's pros and cons. They are much more difficult to feed and treat for mites and anyone who does not treat when the mite load gets really bad will have no bees the next spring. That said I still enjoy having 1 top bar hive just for fun.

In my fourth spring of Beekeeping and it looks like I got 4 of my 5 hives to overwinter successfully for the first time this year. I have learned a lot from these series of posts. I would defer to Kurt as I trust his experience. Might try a top bar to form my own opinion. Passion can be good but misguided at times. I like Kurt's way of doing things and am so grateful for what he taught me last spring. As Norma would would say everyone has an opinion and this is mine.

This is going to be my first year keeping bees after reading about them. I was wondering about alternate hives and I am glad I read this. Thanks for the information. I am still going with Langstroth hives because I haven't heard enough to convince me otherwise.

Michelle

Here's a guy that has tried both.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31556.0.html