requeening

Kurt Bower · Post by **Kurt Bower** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:39 am

A long story short or a short story long... hmmm...

Anyway, I had several hives that needed requeening or were queenless. I went in Friday and proceeded to add a queen to those without and pinch out the bad ones in the other hives.
I came to one colony and could not find the marked "new' queen that was not laying worth a hoot. So in my "where's the stupid queen" routine, I came across a runt of a queen running across an outside frame. She was so small, I wasnt even sure it was a queen. I picked it up to see if it could sting and it couldnt so I pinched her out.
So yesterday afternoon I went around to put my new queens in and lo and behold, there was my marked "new" queen on the first frame I came to.

Wow was I fortunate! If I hadn't foud her I would have lost my new "new" queen for sure.
Lesson learned.... those queens can trix you if you are not careful!

ski · Post by **ski** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:51 pm

Kurt thanks for bringing your bees to the field day and marking that queen with a BIG red dot. Made her a lot easier to find.

I have been in my hive now 3 times. Have not seen the queen yet. I keep expecting her to raise a wing and wave, but....I know.
What I did see were 3 queen cells 2 have been completed. They were located near the top of the frame, all 3 on the same frame. I am thinking supercedure cells. They are going to requeen and not swarm?

Correct?

Question Are we in a nectar flow in the greensboro, burlington, climax area yet?

Can I stop feeding the hive that started from a nuc 5 weeks ago has frames of stores and 4 frames of honey (honey came with the nuc)?
they are still drawing out comb on medium frames above the deep brood box. The honey is in a shallow above the medium. There are still a lot of bees sucking up the syrup.

The hive that started from a nuc April 14th I plan on feeding for a few weeks to help drawing out comb. Good Idea?

Would it be a good idea to move 2 frames of honey to the April 14 hive.?

apologize for so many questions.

Kurt Bower · Post by **Kurt Bower** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:35 pm

Sounds like supercedure cells!
If the colony is strong still and you want to make honey from it, you might be better re-queening than letting them raise their own.

Poplar is flowing now! My bees are definitely bringing in nectar but I am seeing very little put in my supers. The bees take care of themselves first.

I would stop feeding only if you had your brood chamber comb and brood stores adequately taken care of. What do you mean "the honey is in a shallow above the medium?"

Feed, feed, feed!

Kurt

ski · Post by **ski** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:30 pm

Thanks for the reply.

I will feed another week or two and check to see if the comb is drawn out and the stores are mounting they are doing pretty well right now.

The honey IS in a shallow super above the medium, the nuc came with 4 shallow frames of honey.

There is the deep brood chamber, a medium super, a shallow super and the hive top feeder.

Thanks again,
Ski

Locust&Honey · Post by **Locust&Honey** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:59 pm

Kurt,

When you do a split will they raise queen cells or supercedure cells? If they are supercedure cells does that mean a chance of swarming when the new queens hatch??? I will be going in the hives (hopefully) on Monday to check for capped over queen cells. That is the 10 day point. What would be a bad sign other than the obvious, no queen cells at all?

Kurt Bower · Post by **Kurt Bower** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:09 am

So at this point, your brood chamber is going to consist of 1 deep, 1 medium and 1 shallow. They still need to draw almost all of the comb in your brood chamber before you can super up for honey.

If you do a split straight out, then you are essentially raising queens from the equivalent of a supercedure cell. The bees are being forced to raise a queen after the fact and will use any hatched egg the can find less than 3 days old.
The best queens come from swarm cells because these are pre-planned queens. The queen lays an egg in it knowing that another queen will be produced vs. the bees bulding a queen cell around an older egg.
No the bees should not swarm when raising supercedure cells.
A laying worker would be worse than no queen at all!
Normally during a split you should have a pre-mated queen ready to introduce 24 hours later.

Now, you all know that everything you are asking was all covered in the beginners class. Didn't any of you pay attention!

ski · Post by **ski** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:48 am

We are still reading and learning I guess we don’t have that confidence yet to make the decision and just DO IT.
When it comes to feeding I want to feed enough to help but stop before becoming honey or sugar syrup bound. When is it enough and when does it become to much…judgment call but with no experience it’s a lack of judgment call lol.
I think its hard to describe what we see and what we think may be going on in a hive and expect someone to read our minds and tell us what we want to hear.
Yes we paid attention in class, we just need to adopt the philosophy, interpret what we see and don’t be afraid to make mistakes. If we are not making mistakes we are not learning?
It also seems that different hives in the same yard may react differently to the same situation. We just need to read what the hive is telling us and be flexible enough to do what the hive needs. OK I think I have convinced myself of something. I will figure out what that is later on.

Post by **Wally** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:51 am

>>>>Sounds like supercedure cells!
If the colony is strong still and you want to make honey from it, you might be better re-queening than letting them raise their own. <<<<

I would let them raise their own. Kurt would buy a queen and destroy the supercedure cells. That is where personal preference keeps raising it's stinky little head. .

Both ways work well, but some beeks prefer one over the other.
Kurt's goal is honey. Mine is genetics.

ski · Post by **ski** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:47 am

Thanks guys
I respect both opinions and I want to do both. lol Both seem like they would be interesting.
Personnel preference ...that's what makes bee keeping so easy and that's what makes it so hard. lol

MY goal at the present time is to keep bees alive and in the hive. Honey would be nice but not a priority at the present time. I just want them to survive the first winter.

I think this time I will let them raise their own queen. But at some point I would like to buy a queen to to see what that is like.

I am glad they are filling out the medium frames above the deep. The medium is small cell with 2 frames of starter strips. The starter strips have comb almost all the way to the bottom of the frame in a "V"shape. But the queen has not been there yet. But they are storing syrup or nectar there.

Kurt Bower · Post by **Kurt Bower** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:09 am

I simply believe that you have less chance of getting an inferior queen by purchasing. (did I really say that

)
If the queen breeders were doing a good job, then the queens should always be better which is not the case.
I agree with Wally, that I am in no way maintaining the genetics, but am simply trying to produce money making bees.
My grandfather would not have thought twice before pinching out an old queen and letting them raise their own.
I am also concerned about the 4 weeks of lost bee production you would incur by letting them raise their own.

Kurt

Post by **Wally** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:19 am

>>>>If the queen breeders were doing a good job<<<<

If a bullfrog had wings...

>>>>I am also concerned about the 4 weeks of lost bee production you would incur by letting them raise their own.<<<<

He already has capped queen cells.....Less than 1 week to emergence....I week to begin laying. 1 1/2 week total

New queen takes a week to get, 1/2 week to release and start laying...
1 1/2 week total

Other than that, I agree.

Locust&Honey · Post by **Locust&Honey** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:10 pm

Ski.... I couldn't stand it anymore and went into my hives today. Well...not ALL of them. I wanted to see if we got the queen into the new hive that we started or we left her in the old hive. Incase you forgot

, I split my two hives 5 days ago. Found the queen in one hive and put her and 4 more frames into the new body. The other hive we were unable to find the queen so we made sure there were eggs in both and went on our way. So I had two hives to try and fqure out if there was a queen or not. I suspected that the queen WAS removed into the new body. I observed a very prominent change in the behavior of the old hive and decided it was them who were now queenless. Plus the sound of the queenless hives were VERY AUDIBLE. Like a wind tunnel. WOOOOOOOOOOOOSH. Anyway...I went into the NEW one that I wasn't sure about and sure enough we got the queen into the new body

. Not only that but ALL new 5 frames were drawn. eggs laid, new brood, hatching brood, lots of nectarand pollen, plus honey was being capped over

I could not believe my eyes. ONLY 5 DAYS!!! The reason I went into them was because I haven't seen any emergence of foragers and wondered what was going on. I am soooo happy. Also went into one of the queenless hives to witness my first queen/supercedure cells. I had two at the top and stop there with just one frame. THEY WERE TICKED!!!!! VERY, VERY AGRESSIVE. Attcking the hive tool and anything that moved. I felt bad for them and put everything back. What happened to the wax moth???

Kurt Bower · Post by **Kurt Bower** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:32 am

Life cycle of a queen:

Day 0
A fertilized egg is laid by the reigning queen.
Day 3
The fertilized egg hatches.
Day 9
The queen’s cell is capped.
Day 16
The new queen emerges from her cell.
Days 19-21
The queen’s orientation Flight takes place.
Days 23-26
The queen takes her nuptial Flights
Days 26-30
The queen begins to lay eggs.

I would say closer to 2 weeks to start laying after a queen cell is capped.

I release my queens after 3 days in a hive, so my queens are out and laying at least a week ahead of a capped cell.
You still gain 4 weeks if making a split.

Every beekeeper does it differently! Aren't we having fun now

Kurt

Post by **Wally** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:42 am

>>>>I release my queens after 3 days in a hive, so my queens are out and laying at least a week ahead of a capped cell.<<<<

I agree

>>>>You still gain 4 weeks if making a split. <<<<

I think you typoed a 4 rather than a one.

Of course we're having fun. If we weren't, I would take my ball and go home.

Your dates may be right by the books, but the bees don't read books. I very seldom see a queen that isn't laying by the 23rd day if the weather doesn't delay her flights. If she isn't laying by day 35, she will usually be a drone layer.

Kurt Bower · Post by **Kurt Bower** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:32 pm

No typo.

If I were to make a split without any queen cells present, then I would be saving 4 (well really 3) weeks by premated queen introduction.

And yes it is true that I am talking worst case mating scenario.

Post by **Wally** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:44 pm

To quote ski..."What I did see were 3 queen cells 2 have been completed."

That takes about 2 weeks. 3 minus 2 equals 1.
If it took ski over a week to order, receive, install and her start laying, he would be on time with raising one.
Also, he would have known genetics, rather than unknown quality.

Yep, now we're really having fun.