Split vs. Swarm
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Locust&Honey
Split vs. Swarm
Can someone please give a small, detailed explanation of what a split would be and what to look for and when to do it??? I thought you would let them swarm and then get your swarm to possibly add another hive. But reading one of the other posts it now appears to me that a "split" would be the more ideal way to do things. What is the advantage of a split vs. swarm? Any disadvantages???? What would be the "big" indicator that a split would be in order??? So many questions....so little time. Also, what is this I read about cutting off the queen cells???
Hey L&H
Maybe I can address part of your questions.
A split is taking one hive and making two. There are a few different kinds of splits. The advantage of the split would be it happens more or less under your control. You can make the hive think it has swarmed.
Example: Taking 4-5 frames of brood and the nurse bees and maybe the old queen and move them into a new 10 frame hive body. You have made a split.
A swarm is when the hive decides to split on its own so the girls make supercedure cells and the old queen and a lot of sisters leave the hive to find a new home. So the disadvantage is you would would have to be there at the right time to catch the swarm.
Very strong hive would be an indicator that a split may be performed. A strong hive MAY be two to three boxes of brood.
I think someone with experience should explain the rest as there can be many indicators and options.
L&H Its neat you have your bees
Maybe I can address part of your questions.
A split is taking one hive and making two. There are a few different kinds of splits. The advantage of the split would be it happens more or less under your control. You can make the hive think it has swarmed.
Example: Taking 4-5 frames of brood and the nurse bees and maybe the old queen and move them into a new 10 frame hive body. You have made a split.
A swarm is when the hive decides to split on its own so the girls make supercedure cells and the old queen and a lot of sisters leave the hive to find a new home. So the disadvantage is you would would have to be there at the right time to catch the swarm.
Very strong hive would be an indicator that a split may be performed. A strong hive MAY be two to three boxes of brood.
I think someone with experience should explain the rest as there can be many indicators and options.
L&H Its neat you have your bees
Here are some words from Michael Bush on quee cells. I AM sure there are people that disagree with him.
Stop cutting out swarm cells.
I read the books and I tried to do this when I was young, inexperienced and foolish. The bees soon taught me what a waste of time and effort it was. If the bees have made up their mind to swarm, do a split or put each frame with some swarm cells in a nuc with a frame of honey and get some nice queens. Once they've gone this far, I've never seen them change their mind. Of course the solution was to keep it from getting this far. Keeping the brood nest open while keeping enough expansion room in the supers is the best swarm control I've found. If the brood nest is getting filled with honey, put a couple of empty frames in. Yes, empty. No foundation, nothing. Try it. The bees will build some drone comb, probably the first frame, but after that they'll draw some very nice worker brood and the queen will have it layed up before the whole comb is even drawn or even full depth. You'll be shocked how quickly they can do this and how it distracts them from swarming.
Stop cutting out swarm cells.
I read the books and I tried to do this when I was young, inexperienced and foolish. The bees soon taught me what a waste of time and effort it was. If the bees have made up their mind to swarm, do a split or put each frame with some swarm cells in a nuc with a frame of honey and get some nice queens. Once they've gone this far, I've never seen them change their mind. Of course the solution was to keep it from getting this far. Keeping the brood nest open while keeping enough expansion room in the supers is the best swarm control I've found. If the brood nest is getting filled with honey, put a couple of empty frames in. Yes, empty. No foundation, nothing. Try it. The bees will build some drone comb, probably the first frame, but after that they'll draw some very nice worker brood and the queen will have it layed up before the whole comb is even drawn or even full depth. You'll be shocked how quickly they can do this and how it distracts them from swarming.
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Kurt Bower
- Guard bee
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- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:04 pm
- Location: Julian, NC
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I too believe that cutting swarm cells is a waste of time. It demoralizes the bees and probably will be the destruction of that colony in the long run.
A swarm cell is the preferred method for raising a queen and using frames with swarm cells on them to raise queens is a good way to do it.
With beekeeping, you really have to manage your bees if you intend on raising honey.
If you want to merely increase, then a regular spit will do. It works best if you have a queen ready for introduction. Always plan ahead.
I frequently make splits after queen cells have formed, thereby increasing my bees and keeping the potential for honey. That's right I keep the swarm cells and eliminate swarming while splitting my bees.
Kurt
A swarm cell is the preferred method for raising a queen and using frames with swarm cells on them to raise queens is a good way to do it.
With beekeeping, you really have to manage your bees if you intend on raising honey.
If you want to merely increase, then a regular spit will do. It works best if you have a queen ready for introduction. Always plan ahead.
I frequently make splits after queen cells have formed, thereby increasing my bees and keeping the potential for honey. That's right I keep the swarm cells and eliminate swarming while splitting my bees.
Kurt
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Locust&Honey
Alright Kurt, I will be going in the hive in either Thursday or Saturday. Tell me what to look for in order to do a split. What are the "must see" things that will undoubtly be a need to split? Now, if you are laying around the house with absolutely nothing to do, just wishing someone would call you to come evaluate a hive then please let me know. I will be glad to have you over for a look see. Would probably be willing to pay you a little for your time. Either way, let me know what to be prepared for. I will let you know a little about my two hives. I bought two from Wally and he said they were very strong. They appeared to me (a rookie) absolutely full of bees. I asked Wally about putting on a super and he said he would go ahead and do it. So, I have done that. That was last Thursday. I haven't bothered them other than to start feeding with front hive feeders, it was all I had. I am dying to go in and see if they have dfrawn comb and see their status. I am holding out because I want to know if I should go all the way in and scout out the situation. Thanks again for all your help.
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Kurt Bower
- Guard bee
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:04 pm
- Location: Julian, NC
- Contact:
Well, I will not be laying around. 
If I was available, I would help you in a heart beat for nothing.
Beekeepers don't charge to help other beekeepers.
Anyway, it sounds as if you gave them a super of foundation?
If this is the case, I wouldn't consider splitting them until they had it all drawn out. If you go in and see swarm cells on the bottom, then you will be forced to do something.
I am assuming you are wanting to split them for a bee increase?
let me know and we will talk some more.
Kurt
If I was available, I would help you in a heart beat for nothing.
Beekeepers don't charge to help other beekeepers.
Anyway, it sounds as if you gave them a super of foundation?
If this is the case, I wouldn't consider splitting them until they had it all drawn out. If you go in and see swarm cells on the bottom, then you will be forced to do something.
I am assuming you are wanting to split them for a bee increase?
let me know and we will talk some more.
Kurt
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Locust&Honey
Yes Kurt I have added a super with foundation. I went in the super today just to see what was happening. They haven't moved up into the super yet full blown. About 30 bees or so in the super. I didn't see any signs of comb being drawn yet. I got the hives last Thursday and put the supers on the same day. Just plain beeswax strips. I started feeding 1:1 sugar solution yesterday. The bees are very active in this weather. What about a water supply? I put a hanging birdbath near the hives. What is the prime disatnce from the hive for a water source???? thanks for all your help. I called James Norris and he said he would come over Monday and go in the hives with me to get an evaluation. Thanks for the help on the forum though. This means alot more when I can go apply what I am being told. The class was a good thing, but nothing beats experience. By the way, a couple of guys at my work told me they get there honey from a guy by the name of Kurt Bower. You must get around. 
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Kurt Bower
- Guard bee
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:04 pm
- Location: Julian, NC
- Contact:
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Locust&Honey
Ok Kurt, now I have just a few more questions before I leave this subject. Did my putting on of the super make it easier on my hive. Or should I say, did it give them room to move and thus not split or swarm will be needed. I don't remember how many frames of brood are in the hive body body itself but when Wally and I looked it appeared (to me...aka "the rookie") like the frames were full. Wally estimated the hive to weigh 60-70 pounds....I think. It was pretty heavy. If adding the super helped the hive from swarming I will keep that in mind. Do you use queen excluders?? Will you please explain why you do or don't???